Διαπιστώνω με θλίψη ότι διάφορες επαφές (φιλικές/επαγγελματικές) που διατηρούσα εδώ και χρόνια στο εξωτερικό (Ευρώπη/ΗΠΑ) 'εξαφανίστηκαν' εδώ και ένα περίπου χρόνο. Δεν μπορώ παρά ν' αναρωτηθώ αν μέρος αυτών των 'εξαφανίσεων' οφείλεται στην πολυμέτωπη διεθνή δυσφήμιση που υφιστάμεθα ως λαός. Θεωρώ ότι αυτή η δυσφήμηση αποτελεί εξ' ίσου μεγάλη (ή μεγαλύτερη) εθνική ζημία με αυτήν της οικονομικής κρίσης και από την οποία πολύ πιο δύσκολα θα ανακάμψουμε (αν ποτέ)!
Έχω πέσει πάνω σε διάφορα άρθρα διεθνών 'καλοθελητών/κριτικών' που εφράζουν αρνητικές γνώμες για τις κακές μας συνήθειες και πρακτικές (σε κρατικό, όπως και ατομικό επίπεδο). Εντάξει, αυτές μπορώ να τις ανεχθώ - είμαι και σχετικά ανήμπορος ν' αντιδράσω. Δεν μπορώ όμως ν' ανεχθώ, χωρίς απέραντη οργή, την ευθεία, ανενδoίαστη και ασύλληπτης έκτασης συλλογική εθνική δυσφήμηση/διασυρμό που υποστήκαμε και εξακολουθούμε να υφιστάμεθα από τον εκλεγμένο πρωθυπουργό μας και τους υπουργούς του!
Δεν θεωρώ τον εαυτό μου 'διεφθαρμένο', δεν 'έφαγα' ποτέ τίποτα μαζί με κανέναν, ούτε και έχω σχέσεις με κόσμο που ανήκει σε τέτοιες κατηγορίες ανθρώπων. Αν κάποιος μου κολλήσει δημόσια την ρετσινιά του διεφθαρμένου, δικαιούμαι να τόν μηνύσω για συκοφαντική δυσφήμηση κλπ., σωστά;
Όπως και νά 'χει το πράγμα, είμαστε τώρα σε προσπάθεια εντοπισμού και διόρθωσης των κακώς κειμένων. Αυτή η προσπάθεια θα πρέπει να είναι πλέον συλλογική (απ' όλους μας) και όχι να επαφίεται στις εκάστοτε κυβερνήσεις ή εξωτερικούς 'γκαουλάιτερ'. Καλό θα ήταν, επίσης, να δημιουργηθεί κάποιο μόνιμο 'παρατηρητήριο' του πως μας βλέπουν οι 'απ' έξω' (reality check)!
Παραθέτω ένα σχετικό παράδειγμα από προσωπική εμπειρία: αρχές του 2010 έκανα πρόταση σε ελληνοαμερικανό επιχειρηματία στο Σικάγο, που αφορούσε στο στήσιμο μονάδας παραγωγής βιοκαυσίμου (εξαγώγιμου και περιζήτητου) σε δικό του εργοστασιακό ακίνητο στην Ελλάδα. Το ακίνητο παρέμενε τότε (και παραμένει) ανεκμετάλλευτο, αφού ο επιχειρηματίας αναγκάστηκε να τερματίσει άδοξα την σύντομη δραστηριότητά του εδώ, βιώνοντας άσχημα την ελληνική πραγματικότητα (παρήγε μηχανήματα υψηλής τεχνολογίας για παγκόσμια εξαγωγή). Ακολουθεί η σχετική αλληλογραφία μεταξύ εμού και του επιχειρηματία 'Χ' (έχω απαλείψει προσωπικές λεπτομέρειες):
(Από τον Χ προς εμένα)
...
Sorry for the delay on my reply but I have been extremely busy lately. I just went through 350 resumes for an accounting position that we opened and I need to post adds for another 5 positions. In the meantime we are “short handed” and lately I have been coming back from the office at 10:00pm…
I read all the emails that you have sent paying very close attention. ...I am almost sure that you already knew my answer/opinion, but here it is…
Government:
At this time, I would NOT recommend ANY investments in Greece. The reasons are many but the largest one at the moment is the problems that the country/government is facing. There are NO guaranties for nothing! In addition, something that I found out the hard way, the government might vote a law that will become in effect retro-active as it was voted 2 years ago! This is completely ridiculous… How could anyone plan anything?
Government incentives:
DO NOT BELIEVE ANYONE! They all promise you the world, they are all polite but when it comes to the point to get the incentive, get ready to put your hand deep in your pocket. There are three ways this works (or not):
1) You depend on the incentive and you cannot finish your project without it: You will end up broke, you will sell your dads’ apartment so that you keep on going with your dream and at the end you lose everything because you did not have enough money to finish and now you need to give the incentive back with 11% interest or you go to jail for fraud.
2) You depend on the incentive, you hire a company that has good history on getting it, you get the incentive (always late by minimum xx months) and it costs you 20% of the incentive which most of the times the company that handles it will help you recover by presenting 20% higher costs.
3) You do not depend on the incentive, you finish your project yourself and if you get the incentive it will be a nice bonus (you think). In the mean time the trouble and effort that you invested in order to get the incentive proves to be at a loss because of the huge time delays and the time that you need to invest in order to fulfill requirements and bureaucracy. In addition this will remove any flexibility you would have running your own small business because you would have to adhere tight to the “rules”.
Now, if your uncle is Mr. Government official (not to name anyone but you can pick from a plethora available) then it might be a different story but even then, it will still cost you something “extra”…
Just FYI, I was at the #3 case above.
People:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. The work ethics are bad and (almost) everyone in Greece is working VERY hard in order to figure out how not to work and still have income! To make the long story short, in Chicago we are producing 5 machines per month. In Greece, with almost the same people, with new machines, tools and building we produced 2 machines every 5 months! Do the math…
Health care:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. For the low income working class, IKA costs are good. For middle and upper class, IKA costs more than 30%-50% of the health care costs (comparing with private health care) in Chicago! Now if you believe that IKA is ok then this would not be a problem (because you would not know any better). By the way, my dad almost died when he had to do a gaul bladder removal through IKA (regardless if he also paid extras under the table) and I had to come to Greece so I can arrange with private doctors to “fix” him.
Unfortunately the majority of the people in Greece do not even know what they are paying to IKA and none knows what their employers pay to IKA… They only see how much money the bring home and they declare this as their income when you ask them! The real cost on the business could be almost double or more!
Banking:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. For the past 2 years I have been trying to get internet access on one of my US$ accounts with my other accounts (same bank). I have traveled in Greece 3 times, I have visited the bank 2 times, my father visited another 2 times, I have made 10 phone-calls and 4 faxes: Result? I still did not accomplish something very simple. Even the private banks are flooded with bureaucratic procedures… What good is it when you get a $250,000 order and you need to accept an L/C (letter of credit) and you need to spend 2 days in the bank????
Business:
I still try to find an organization in Greece that acts professionally. Maybe some international companies but these are very expensive… I also believe that these will leave Greece pretty soon… Anywhere you go they all look what car you drive and they charge you accordingly (make sure you have two cars…). No one cares if you will be back to buy again; they just care how match they will make from the current transaction. For example, we received quotations from 10 different tool-shops: They all knew that we started a new factory, they all knew that we are an already established international company and they all knew that we are looking for long time business relationships. Result? The least expensive quotation was at minimum double than the quotes we had from Chicago and the deliveries or quality were uncertain. Most of the times they lack infrastructure.
Logistics:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. We were missing a $50 part so that can ship a $200,000 machine to Turkey (export). We immediately shipped the part from our warehouse in Chicago, it arrived within 2 days at the airport in Greece but the customs agents were on strike! Result? We had to borrow money from the bank in order to cover expenses and payroll (Thank God the banks were not on strike), we delayed the delivery for the customer for 2 weeks to whom we gave a free trip to Chicago in order to accommodate his anger and in general we “lost face”.
After we figured that it is so much better to manufacture in Chicago instead and ship to Greece we started shipping machines and sub-assemblies in containers from our factory in Chicago to Greece (so that they can sell and make some money to keep the business going). At this point we were 2 months late on deliveries! Strikes at the ports! On one particular case, we had to divert a shipment to Italy (after the ship was lingering in the Aegean for two weeks they went to Italy) and then truck it to Greece: cost $10,000!
The next container we sent with a company that could dock in Astakos (private). The shipment was there with only 2 weeks delay but the cost was almost $10,000 instead of $3,000.
The only logistics / transportation that works good in Greece is the small private truck owners but we could not even do any business with them because no one wanted to give us a receipt or everyone wanted to write a small hypothetical cost on the receipt! Also, do not try to find one for 1 -3 days after a holiday.
You also need to know what is the relationship between the government and the farmers! This is very serious because if the farmers get angry, they will not let you ship anything from your business… Very popular for the past 3-4 years.
Communications:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. UNLESS you are in CERTAIN places in Athens, you cannot get a good Internet connection! This should be a big one for your business plan! Make sure you can get at least a phone line before you do anything…
Infrastructure:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. UNLESS you are in Athens, you do not have water, sewage or garbage collection but you still pay for it because it is automatically billed through other tax bills.
I am not going to elaborate more because I realize I already got boring and I also believe that I passed my message.
The business that you are thinking might be a good idea (sounds like it) but I would do some research and see what the competition is doing...
...
I forgot to mention: Since I am getting penalized for the fact that I invested in Greece all the money I made during the last 20 years in Chicago, I also have my brand new house in Nea Kiffissia for sale. Unfortunately, I wanted to have a home so I can bring my kids for 2-3 months a year hoping they will learn to be Greeks but I would have to pay electricity and this is how the government is defining if you live in the house or not… So, I am getting accused that I am renting it without reporting income from it… I have to pay about 20,000 Euros per year (besides all the rest of the expenses)... If you are planning to build a house, try to keep it below 200 sq. meters. (for now because this might change retro-active).
I hope that I answered all of your questions...
Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.
Best regards and good luck.
PS I did not mean to disappoint you but I am an extreme realistic person and as an engineer I follow the rules of physics. Quality is not expensive, it is priceless.
Χ...
(Από εμένα προς τον Χ)
Dear Χ...,
It was very nice to make your acquaintance, albeit in writing! I wish to thank you for your straightforwardness and the obvious effort and time you took to write your well-documented reply...
OK, so much for the idea! I can totally sympathize with your opinions and views of Greece, since I have spent 20 years of my life in your 'neighborhood'. I came back to Greece in 1995 and, although I try very hard, I still cannot fit in completely (I am still called 'Αμερικανάκι' by my friends and relatives)!
It is very disheartening to come face-to-face, on a daily basis, with the harsh realities you describe . Nevertheless, what should we do here in Greece - lay down and die or emigrate? These realities are part of a larger (political) context... I wish I could convey your email to our 'esteemed' prime minister and ask him to comment on it publicly (yeah, right)!
...
(Από τον Χ προς εμένα)
...
As far ar as your question “what should we do here in Greece”: It all depends! It depends what you want to do, how much you are willing to take, what you are willing to give up and how much effort you are willing to put! This is a very complicated question…
I would recommend that in Greece one should either adapt to the existing situation and learn to live with it OR depending of the requirements and goals, move somewhere that he or she has the least difficulties = increasing the possibility of success. It is a fact that only 2 out of 10 new businesses survive after the first two years of existence in the USA. Imagine what the percentage is in Greece.
At the end of the day, it really “boils down” to what you really want. The fact is that you do not really need to be successful in order to live good! You better minimize your expectations than lose your hair and stomach…
...
Regards,
X
Τα σχόλια περιττεύουν!
Έχω πέσει πάνω σε διάφορα άρθρα διεθνών 'καλοθελητών/κριτικών' που εφράζουν αρνητικές γνώμες για τις κακές μας συνήθειες και πρακτικές (σε κρατικό, όπως και ατομικό επίπεδο). Εντάξει, αυτές μπορώ να τις ανεχθώ - είμαι και σχετικά ανήμπορος ν' αντιδράσω. Δεν μπορώ όμως ν' ανεχθώ, χωρίς απέραντη οργή, την ευθεία, ανενδoίαστη και ασύλληπτης έκτασης συλλογική εθνική δυσφήμηση/διασυρμό που υποστήκαμε και εξακολουθούμε να υφιστάμεθα από τον εκλεγμένο πρωθυπουργό μας και τους υπουργούς του!
Δεν θεωρώ τον εαυτό μου 'διεφθαρμένο', δεν 'έφαγα' ποτέ τίποτα μαζί με κανέναν, ούτε και έχω σχέσεις με κόσμο που ανήκει σε τέτοιες κατηγορίες ανθρώπων. Αν κάποιος μου κολλήσει δημόσια την ρετσινιά του διεφθαρμένου, δικαιούμαι να τόν μηνύσω για συκοφαντική δυσφήμηση κλπ., σωστά;
Όπως και νά 'χει το πράγμα, είμαστε τώρα σε προσπάθεια εντοπισμού και διόρθωσης των κακώς κειμένων. Αυτή η προσπάθεια θα πρέπει να είναι πλέον συλλογική (απ' όλους μας) και όχι να επαφίεται στις εκάστοτε κυβερνήσεις ή εξωτερικούς 'γκαουλάιτερ'. Καλό θα ήταν, επίσης, να δημιουργηθεί κάποιο μόνιμο 'παρατηρητήριο' του πως μας βλέπουν οι 'απ' έξω' (reality check)!
Παραθέτω ένα σχετικό παράδειγμα από προσωπική εμπειρία: αρχές του 2010 έκανα πρόταση σε ελληνοαμερικανό επιχειρηματία στο Σικάγο, που αφορούσε στο στήσιμο μονάδας παραγωγής βιοκαυσίμου (εξαγώγιμου και περιζήτητου) σε δικό του εργοστασιακό ακίνητο στην Ελλάδα. Το ακίνητο παρέμενε τότε (και παραμένει) ανεκμετάλλευτο, αφού ο επιχειρηματίας αναγκάστηκε να τερματίσει άδοξα την σύντομη δραστηριότητά του εδώ, βιώνοντας άσχημα την ελληνική πραγματικότητα (παρήγε μηχανήματα υψηλής τεχνολογίας για παγκόσμια εξαγωγή). Ακολουθεί η σχετική αλληλογραφία μεταξύ εμού και του επιχειρηματία 'Χ' (έχω απαλείψει προσωπικές λεπτομέρειες):
(Από τον Χ προς εμένα)
...
Sorry for the delay on my reply but I have been extremely busy lately. I just went through 350 resumes for an accounting position that we opened and I need to post adds for another 5 positions. In the meantime we are “short handed” and lately I have been coming back from the office at 10:00pm…
I read all the emails that you have sent paying very close attention. ...I am almost sure that you already knew my answer/opinion, but here it is…
Government:
At this time, I would NOT recommend ANY investments in Greece. The reasons are many but the largest one at the moment is the problems that the country/government is facing. There are NO guaranties for nothing! In addition, something that I found out the hard way, the government might vote a law that will become in effect retro-active as it was voted 2 years ago! This is completely ridiculous… How could anyone plan anything?
Government incentives:
DO NOT BELIEVE ANYONE! They all promise you the world, they are all polite but when it comes to the point to get the incentive, get ready to put your hand deep in your pocket. There are three ways this works (or not):
1) You depend on the incentive and you cannot finish your project without it: You will end up broke, you will sell your dads’ apartment so that you keep on going with your dream and at the end you lose everything because you did not have enough money to finish and now you need to give the incentive back with 11% interest or you go to jail for fraud.
2) You depend on the incentive, you hire a company that has good history on getting it, you get the incentive (always late by minimum xx months) and it costs you 20% of the incentive which most of the times the company that handles it will help you recover by presenting 20% higher costs.
3) You do not depend on the incentive, you finish your project yourself and if you get the incentive it will be a nice bonus (you think). In the mean time the trouble and effort that you invested in order to get the incentive proves to be at a loss because of the huge time delays and the time that you need to invest in order to fulfill requirements and bureaucracy. In addition this will remove any flexibility you would have running your own small business because you would have to adhere tight to the “rules”.
Now, if your uncle is Mr. Government official (not to name anyone but you can pick from a plethora available) then it might be a different story but even then, it will still cost you something “extra”…
Just FYI, I was at the #3 case above.
People:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. The work ethics are bad and (almost) everyone in Greece is working VERY hard in order to figure out how not to work and still have income! To make the long story short, in Chicago we are producing 5 machines per month. In Greece, with almost the same people, with new machines, tools and building we produced 2 machines every 5 months! Do the math…
Health care:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. For the low income working class, IKA costs are good. For middle and upper class, IKA costs more than 30%-50% of the health care costs (comparing with private health care) in Chicago! Now if you believe that IKA is ok then this would not be a problem (because you would not know any better). By the way, my dad almost died when he had to do a gaul bladder removal through IKA (regardless if he also paid extras under the table) and I had to come to Greece so I can arrange with private doctors to “fix” him.
Unfortunately the majority of the people in Greece do not even know what they are paying to IKA and none knows what their employers pay to IKA… They only see how much money the bring home and they declare this as their income when you ask them! The real cost on the business could be almost double or more!
Banking:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. For the past 2 years I have been trying to get internet access on one of my US$ accounts with my other accounts (same bank). I have traveled in Greece 3 times, I have visited the bank 2 times, my father visited another 2 times, I have made 10 phone-calls and 4 faxes: Result? I still did not accomplish something very simple. Even the private banks are flooded with bureaucratic procedures… What good is it when you get a $250,000 order and you need to accept an L/C (letter of credit) and you need to spend 2 days in the bank????
Business:
I still try to find an organization in Greece that acts professionally. Maybe some international companies but these are very expensive… I also believe that these will leave Greece pretty soon… Anywhere you go they all look what car you drive and they charge you accordingly (make sure you have two cars…). No one cares if you will be back to buy again; they just care how match they will make from the current transaction. For example, we received quotations from 10 different tool-shops: They all knew that we started a new factory, they all knew that we are an already established international company and they all knew that we are looking for long time business relationships. Result? The least expensive quotation was at minimum double than the quotes we had from Chicago and the deliveries or quality were uncertain. Most of the times they lack infrastructure.
Logistics:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. We were missing a $50 part so that can ship a $200,000 machine to Turkey (export). We immediately shipped the part from our warehouse in Chicago, it arrived within 2 days at the airport in Greece but the customs agents were on strike! Result? We had to borrow money from the bank in order to cover expenses and payroll (Thank God the banks were not on strike), we delayed the delivery for the customer for 2 weeks to whom we gave a free trip to Chicago in order to accommodate his anger and in general we “lost face”.
After we figured that it is so much better to manufacture in Chicago instead and ship to Greece we started shipping machines and sub-assemblies in containers from our factory in Chicago to Greece (so that they can sell and make some money to keep the business going). At this point we were 2 months late on deliveries! Strikes at the ports! On one particular case, we had to divert a shipment to Italy (after the ship was lingering in the Aegean for two weeks they went to Italy) and then truck it to Greece: cost $10,000!
The next container we sent with a company that could dock in Astakos (private). The shipment was there with only 2 weeks delay but the cost was almost $10,000 instead of $3,000.
The only logistics / transportation that works good in Greece is the small private truck owners but we could not even do any business with them because no one wanted to give us a receipt or everyone wanted to write a small hypothetical cost on the receipt! Also, do not try to find one for 1 -3 days after a holiday.
You also need to know what is the relationship between the government and the farmers! This is very serious because if the farmers get angry, they will not let you ship anything from your business… Very popular for the past 3-4 years.
Communications:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. UNLESS you are in CERTAIN places in Athens, you cannot get a good Internet connection! This should be a big one for your business plan! Make sure you can get at least a phone line before you do anything…
Infrastructure:
From my personal experience, the answer is again negative. UNLESS you are in Athens, you do not have water, sewage or garbage collection but you still pay for it because it is automatically billed through other tax bills.
I am not going to elaborate more because I realize I already got boring and I also believe that I passed my message.
The business that you are thinking might be a good idea (sounds like it) but I would do some research and see what the competition is doing...
...
I forgot to mention: Since I am getting penalized for the fact that I invested in Greece all the money I made during the last 20 years in Chicago, I also have my brand new house in Nea Kiffissia for sale. Unfortunately, I wanted to have a home so I can bring my kids for 2-3 months a year hoping they will learn to be Greeks but I would have to pay electricity and this is how the government is defining if you live in the house or not… So, I am getting accused that I am renting it without reporting income from it… I have to pay about 20,000 Euros per year (besides all the rest of the expenses)... If you are planning to build a house, try to keep it below 200 sq. meters. (for now because this might change retro-active).
I hope that I answered all of your questions...
Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.
Best regards and good luck.
PS I did not mean to disappoint you but I am an extreme realistic person and as an engineer I follow the rules of physics. Quality is not expensive, it is priceless.
Χ...
(Από εμένα προς τον Χ)
Dear Χ...,
It was very nice to make your acquaintance, albeit in writing! I wish to thank you for your straightforwardness and the obvious effort and time you took to write your well-documented reply...
OK, so much for the idea! I can totally sympathize with your opinions and views of Greece, since I have spent 20 years of my life in your 'neighborhood'. I came back to Greece in 1995 and, although I try very hard, I still cannot fit in completely (I am still called 'Αμερικανάκι' by my friends and relatives)!
It is very disheartening to come face-to-face, on a daily basis, with the harsh realities you describe . Nevertheless, what should we do here in Greece - lay down and die or emigrate? These realities are part of a larger (political) context... I wish I could convey your email to our 'esteemed' prime minister and ask him to comment on it publicly (yeah, right)!
...
(Από τον Χ προς εμένα)
...
As far ar as your question “what should we do here in Greece”: It all depends! It depends what you want to do, how much you are willing to take, what you are willing to give up and how much effort you are willing to put! This is a very complicated question…
I would recommend that in Greece one should either adapt to the existing situation and learn to live with it OR depending of the requirements and goals, move somewhere that he or she has the least difficulties = increasing the possibility of success. It is a fact that only 2 out of 10 new businesses survive after the first two years of existence in the USA. Imagine what the percentage is in Greece.
At the end of the day, it really “boils down” to what you really want. The fact is that you do not really need to be successful in order to live good! You better minimize your expectations than lose your hair and stomach…
...
Regards,
X
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